Curse

SaGGGan · Dec 26, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I think one of the greatest problems with SF is, that you now have to bring kind of caster hate to GvG too.

It's true that SF can be easily countered with PD, PB, Diversion, or Mesmer Skills like that ... or maybe Frigid Armor but I don't think it's possible to run in on 8 Chars in a normal Build.

Another Problem is, that a lot of Teams are using a lot of SF Ele + EW, because this increases the pressure even more ...
And fighting those Teams on Burning/Jade Isle is not very funny. Not much space to spread out, no chance to escape because of neat passages.

But back to the counters.
Of course specific counters against 1 or 2 Skills are useless and rubbish in GvG.
So general Caster hate is the key. And then you need Warrior hate. And anti Hex Skills. Defense for your own team ...
But you only have 8 Chars to take those Caster + Warrior Hate, the Defense, the Anti hex and other anti Skills.

Imho you need too much counters atm, beacause there are too much gimmic Builds around. And SF based Teams are one of these Builds.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

and ur going to use that as a reason to nerf sf?

so why not nerfing those other gimmic builds and keep the counter for SF instead? Why would u chose SF for the "overpowered" chant?

twicky_kid · Dec 27, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

and ur going to use that as a reason to nerf sf?

so why not nerfing those other gimmic builds and keep the counter for SF instead? Why would u chose SF for the "overpowered" chant?

Gimmick builds almost always get nerfed.

The point being is that you have to pack so many counters that ONLY work against SF to be effective. If you did take those counters they are useless when you don't run into SF.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

diversion on 2 foes can cripple 2 sf eles. and i dont think diversion is very specific counter.

And as far as my simple theory goes, is it not always the PVP issue that causes havok for in PVE?
Seriously, if GW is mostly about PVP, then advertise the game as such.

Most affected chars are eles as casters due to their dmg against armour levels.
As long as that doesn't get fixed, even slightest nerf cry in pvp against eles creates an issue in PVE which already takes less dmg from elements.

Former Ruling · Dec 27, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

diversion on 2 foes can cripple 2 sf eles. and i dont think diversion is very specific counter.

And as far as my simple theory goes, is it not always the PVP issue that causes havok for in PVE?
Seriously, if GW is mostly about PVP, then advertise the game as such.

1) Diversion hardly "Cripples" Searing Flames, or any consisent patterned build like this, if the Ele is smart. It is of course god against it if the Ele is blindlessly slamming the "1" button on his keybaord over and over >_>

I'll explain myself on that point if you want, I would ramble on though, I'm bad about that.

2) You cannot "Cause havok" in PvE sorry...I've read all your postings on all the SF nerf threads, and all of it mostly revolves around "I use SF in PvE, Don't nerf it because otherwise Ele's Suck in PvE". You know what also "sucks" in PvE? Most Attribute Lines in general. Don't turn SF discussion into a soapbox about how Ele's suck, we have plenty of threads for that.

And I think the advertising does make clear their focus on PvP. What are the Picture links all over the front page? Guild Ladder, Tournament House, 2006 Ladder Season, Official Store (with PvP unlocks specifically mentioned). What are the big articles? Tournament skill charts, Ladder Reset, Competitive Play articles, Pvp primers, etc. The only PvE ones at all are basically the Scribe, and Those "fun weekend" announcements.

I think that makes their focus at the moment pretty clear.

----------------------

I do how ever agree that a damage reduce would be fine. I just don't agree with the pve-centric veiw on the matter.

Riotgear · Dec 27, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If you did take those counters they are useless when you don't run into SF.

I agree. If it weren't for Searing Flames, then Diversion, Signet of Humility, Distracting Shot, and most condition removal skills would be really crappy.

I think SaGGGan hit the nail on the head though. I think it was Squidget who pointed out that this sort of crap is what's turned the meta into spike. Tons of ridiculous pressure options have been popping up, all with significantly different counters, and if you fail to account enough for any of them, you're gonna get rolled. So teams are winding up loading up on shutdown/defense just so they can survive the numerous gimmick builds that push huge amounts of DPS, and the only way they can fit offense on to that as well is to go spike.

bluechestdude · Dec 28, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

this may be a bit off topic but gvging is about using imagination in ur builds and searing flames has no imagination, as mentioned the ways to counter sf is using mes skills or other caster shut down, but the thing is that guilds that rely on sf to win will be destroyed if the sf is shut down...

Quote:

If it weren't for Searing Flames, then Diversion, Signet of Humility, Distracting Shot, and most condition removal skills would be really crappy.

err what do u mean...diversion is an all around skill and sig of humility too...same with dis shot..

shardfenix · Dec 28, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Here's what makes SF broken.

Its counters are obscure.
Its counters don't match the damage output of SF anyway.
In large groups, shutting it down before you die is nearly impossible.
Other skills in its attribute let you spam it without running out of energy.
It not only has the highest spell damage in the game, it has the fastest cast, most area, and quickest recharge too.
If you use SF as a spike, its followup is itself.

.defekt · Dec 28, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

EDIT: rofl. nice edit shard.

shardfenix · Dec 28, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluechestdude

this may be a bit off topic but gvging is about using imagination in ur builds and searing flames has no imagination, as mentioned the ways to counter sf is using mes skills or other caster shut down, but the thing is that guilds that rely on sf to win will be destroyed if the sf is shut down...

err what do u mean...diversion is an all around skill and sig of humility too...same with dis shot..

Completely agree.

PvP is supposed to be about player skill, like it says on the box. I'm not a very big fan of false advertising...

When you list counters for a build, listing interrupts and blackout don't count, because they counter everything. Unfortunately, you can't run 6 dshot rangers and expect them all to interrupt SF on the very first cast.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

This is the third topic I've seen about searing flames, we could seriously use a merge on all these threads [and I could use some help explaining things in the elementalist section (shard, please help me XD)]. The problem with countering it is if you need to counter it, there are 4 or 6 usually, in HA and GvG respectively. I cannot run 4 diversion spammers and still win.

Riotgear · Dec 28, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

You don't need to completely shut down a team to beat them. Taking out a third of their damage output for 20-60 seconds at a time should be sufficient, especially since your mesmers can continue doing other things while the SF eles twiddle their thumbs.

For the record, I do believe SF needs to be tuned. I don't think that the counters are as far off as people seem to claim they are though.

Quote:

It not only has the highest spell damage in the game

Rodgort's Invocation does more damage.

Quote:

Other skills in its attribute let you spam it without running out of energy.

An offensive caster build that runs out of energy is garbage. Period. If you couldn't continue to cast SF without running out of energy, then it would blow ass.

shardfenix · Dec 28, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You don't need to completely shut down a team to beat them. Taking out a third of their damage output for 20-60 seconds at a time should be sufficient, especially since your mesmers can continue doing other things while the SF eles twiddle their thumbs.

A team of 6 SF eles over 15 seconds does 1230 damage per second. Shutting down 1/3 of their damage means they are still doing enough damage to drop one player per second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Rodgort's Invocation does more damage.

Rodgort's invocation has a 3 second charge, costs more, and isn't spammable. Go back to presearing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

An offensive caster build that runs out of energy is garbage. Period. If you couldn't continue to cast SF without running out of energy, then it would blow ass.

Gee you got me on that one, it's a good thing no skill such as [skill]glowing gaze[/skill] exists.

Where did that imaginary energy management skill come from?

qwe4rty · Dec 28, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Rodgort's invocation has a 3 second charge, costs more, and isn't spammable. Go back to presearing.

It was an example, he wasn't using it

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Gee you got me on that one, it's a good thing no skill such as [skill]glowing gaze[/skill] exists.

Where did that imaginary energy management skill come from?

Um, whats your point? I think thats exactly what he was saying? Glowing gaze helps an offensive caster build.

Riotgear · Dec 28, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

A team of 6 SF eles over 15 seconds does 1230 damage per second. Shutting down 1/3 of their damage means they are still doing enough damage to drop one player per second.

Searing Flames: 119 damage every 3 seconds = 39.667 fire dps
Glowing Gaze: 53 damage every 6 seconds = 8.833 fire dps

(39.667 x 6) + (8.833 x 6) = 291 fire dps + 14 burning = 305 dps.

That's against 60 AL. For reference, Protective Spirit will cut off 45% of that as well.

Yes, there are other factors like Liquid Flame, intermediate GoLE casts, and the fact that not all SFs will do damage, but where the hell did you get 1230 from?

Quote:

Rodgort's invocation has a 3 second charge, costs more, and isn't spammable.

It still does more damage than SF. You said SF had the highest spell damage, I'm simply showing that's not only incorrect, but incorrect when compared to one of its peers.

Quote:

Go back to presearing.

New York's weather is very cold, but your flaming keeps me warm!

Quote:

Gee you got me on that one, it's a good thing no skill such as [skill]glowing gaze[/skill] exists.

Where did that imaginary energy management skill come from?

You are complaining that part of why SF is broken is that it can continually be spammed. Being affordable does not make a skill broken. Ever. It simply makes it not useless.

tomcruisejr · Dec 28, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

New York's weather is very cold, but your flaming keeps me warm!

are you serious? it's the last week of december and i haven't seen any snow yet.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 28, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Curse you, global warming.

Xpl0iter · Dec 28, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

i still hate the temperature

Legendary Shiz · Dec 28, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Curse you, global warming.

Should have voted for Al Gore, he's the man with the plan on global warming.

targetdrone · Dec 28, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Sure searing flames is powerful, but I don't think it's overpowered at all. It's supposed to be a useful elite y'know.

Don't teams ever run mesmers or rangers nowadays? The fact people say the ele can just wait for hexes/effects to be removed or wear out - means DPS is lowered so the rest of your team can get on with smashing some AL60 stuff.

Also "Dazed" sure works on spell casters, and there are now even more ways to create and spread it.

It's all just fancier version of rock paper scissors. All this stuff is just to encourage people to _buy_ NF (and other editions) to more easily counter/use NF stuff... It's not monthly fee after all.

And so, there are many new synergies and counters in NF. Paragon + SF eles? Maybe but boring.

Something interesting to try for PvE n/e or n/* MM with jagged bones and a bunch of n/e with searing flames + signet of lost souls - never run out of energy for SF - something should be below 50% or dead after a while. If you don't run out energy Psychic Distraction is useful

. Counter? Daze and kill the MM? Does Spoil Victor work vs Blood of the Master? Necros are evil but they are usually soft and squishy